6 ответов в теме

[Bulavka]

В сети сведения скупые и противоречивые.
Я понимаю, что в Средневековье набор продуктов к столу сильно зависел от региона.
Но все же...
Интересует 13 в.
И южные страны Италия (остался со времен Рима?), Испания, Лангедок.

[likantrop]

Вот тут мелькало http://www.tforum.in...o...c=2708&st=0

Огурец (Cucumis sativus) –Хоть и родина его сев. Индия, он уже вовсю возделывался во времена среднего царства в др. Египте. А во 2 т.до.н.э. – римские садоводы его растили в теплицах %-)). Южная Европа его любила и растила давно. Ессно, он был далек по качествам от современных культиваров

[Silven]

http://www.godecooke...in/tacuin10.htm
http://www.imagesonl...133/13307_2.jpg
Title of Work: Carrara Herbal

Author: Serapion the Younger, author; Filippo, Jacopo, scribe
Illustrator: -
Production: Italy (Padua); circa 1400
Language/Script: Italian translation from Arabic


Английским по белому написано - огурец. Неужели ж.Правда перевод с арабского - то есть регионально книга - арабская, а переводилась в Падуе.

Medieval and Ancient History of the Cucumber

by Ian of Oertha


The cucumber (or cowcumber) has a long and glorious history. The type familiar to North Americans (cucumis sativus) is only one of several varieties which have been eaten or used in medicine: other types include what Pliny called the "wild" cucumber (usually believed to be cucumis silvestris asininus), the Egyptian hairy cucumber (cucumis sate), and another variety, referred to by Pliny (the Elder) as the "Anguine or Erratic Cucumber" (I'm guessing; maybe the West India Cucumber, Cucumis Anguria?), the Sikkim cucumber (cucumis sativus var. sikkimensis, a Himalayan plant), and the squirting cucumber (ecballium elaterium).
According to Alphonse de Candolle (in "Origin of Cultivated Plants"), a 19th Century botanist of some repute, the cucumber originated in India at least 3,000 years ago this morning (heh heh). Since pickling food has been around that long, it is possible people enjoyed pickled cucumbers in ancient times (a relief; how could they do without?).
The Ancient Greeks and Romans spread the vegetable westward, and the Chinese spread the vegetable eastward. Tiberius Caesar was particularly fond of the cucumber, eating one every day of his life (in order to accomplish this, they were grown on carts, which could be kept inside when days were cool during the winter, and wheeled out into the sun; an early mobile greenhouse).
The cucumber is mentioned in Torah; one of the the oldest books in the Bible (Numbers 11:5) and in the book of Isaiah (1:. This probably refers to the hairy cucumber; the Numbers reference complains that they are no longer available for consumption (they had just fled Egypt), the Isaiah reference includes a description of cultivation (so, by that point, they were available).
The cucumber is mentioned in Sumerian writings, including certain proverbs ("Let Ishkur, god, king, split the fertile ground like a cucumber."), The Debate between Summer and Winter, and so on.
Pliny the Elder (an ancient Roman historian and naturalist) wrote of several remedies using cucumbers of various types in Book XX. These include the Wild Cucumber (26 remedies, including one called "elaterium"), the Cultivated Cucumber (9), and the Anguine or Erratic (5 remedies). Palladius, a Greek writer, included a flea-killing recipe that included cucumber seed (along with water, cumin, and psilotre or lupine). Both Theophrastus and Apicius mention cucumbers, Theophrastus describing 3 varieties, and Apicius being more concerned with the eating (and usage).
In medieval period manuscripts, you can find the cucumber mentioned in an herbal by Apuleis (MS Ashmole 1431, Bodleian Library, Oxford), apparently written between 1070 and 1100. The cucumber is mentioned (along with a method to keep "greene Cucumbers all the yeare") in Murrel's Two Books of Cookerie, 1638. It appears to be a method for pickling. It is also mentioned in "The Cooks Guide: Or Rare Receipts for Cookery, 1654" (another pickling reference). Sir Kenelm Digby (born 1603) writes of two recipes with cucumbers; the first, a veal-chicken-vegetable potage (Potage de Sante'), the second, a beef potage with either herbs or veggies.
There is a recipe for cucumber salad in "Recipes Tried and True," a document from Marion, Ohio, dated 1894.
In John Gerard's Herball, 1597, cucumber "taken in meats, is good for the stomack and other parts troubled with heat..." He also writes of a recipe with mutton, oatmeal and herbs (and cucumbers) to "cure all manner of sawce-flegme and copper faces." This to be eaten 3 meals a day. He writes of more curious uses for the cucumber, as well.
Thomas Dawson, in "The Good Huswife's Jewell", 1596, has a recipe for a "sallet" of herbes (by which I take it he meant leafy vegetables), cucumbers or lemons (at least, he writes "lemmans"), sugar, vinegar, oil, flowers, and hard-boiled eggs.
Cucumbers were grown in India 3,000 years ago, in Sumeria, Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, 9th Century France (Charlemagne was a cucumber eater), early 1300's England (though they were later lost, and re-introduced in the mid-1500s), Spain at least by 1494 (the Spaniards transported them to Haiti that year via Chris Columbus), 1535 Montreal (according to Jacques Cartier), South Dakota by 1500 or so, New England at least by 1630, and reportedly in Ancient Thrace. Tzatziki was eaten by the Turks in the 1500s, and passed along to the Greeks; add that to your period cucumber dishes.
In all, a number of peoples have eaten cucumbers during periods covered by re-enactors; it is conceivable that this popular item might be eaten anywhere, since Jewish people have been eating them since Ancient Egypt, and as a student of history knows, they've been everywhere. Not to mention the world-spanning empires which grew them (Greek, Roman, Ottoman) would have spread their use, as well.

Неутешительный вывод - возможно еще в 13 веке в Англии люди могли наслаждаться соленым огурчиком, но потом огурцы "исчезли" вплоть до сер 16в.В продвинутой Испании огурцы появились к 1494 году благодаря импорту с Гаити( следует поблагодарить Колумба).

[Bulavka]

Неутешительный вывод - возможно еще в 13 веке в Англии люди могли наслаждаться соленым огурчиком, но потом огурцы "исчезли" вплоть до сер 16в.В продвинутой Испании огурцы появились к 1494 году благодаря импорту с Гаити( следует поблагодарить Колумба).

Спасибо ссылки на манускрипты - очень интересно.

Текст, насколько я поняла из Gode Gookery из рецепта про салат в котором используются огурцы в качестве одного из ингридиентов. Автор этого текста приходит, как мне кажется, совершенно к другим выводам.

Thomas Dawson, in "The Good Huswife's Jewell", 1596, has a recipe for a "sallet" of herbes, cucumbers or lemons (at least, he writes "lemmans"), sugar, vinegar, oil, flowers, and hard-boiled eggs.
Cucumbers were grown in India 3,000 years ago, in Sumeria, Ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, 9th Century France (Charlemagne was a cucumber eater), early 1300's England (though they were later lost, and re-introduced in the mid-1500s), Spain at least by 1494 (the Spaniards transported them to Haiti that year via Chris Columbus), 1535 Montreal (according to Jacques Cartier), South Dakota by 1500 or so, New England at least by 1630, and reportedly in Ancient Thrace. Tzatziki was eaten by the Turks in the 1500s, and passed along to the Greeks.
In all, a number of peoples have eaten cucumbers during periods covered by re-enactors; it is conceivable that this popular item might be eaten anywhere, since Jewish people have been eating them since Ancient Egypt, and as a student of history knows, they've been everywhere. Not to mention the world-spanning empires which grew them (Greek, Roman, Ottoman) would have spread their use, as well.

Томас Доусан в книге "The Good Huswife's Jewell" (1596 г.) приводит рецепт салата ("sallet") из трав (как я поняла «листовых»), огурцов, лимонов (по крайней мере, он пишет "lemmans"), сахара, уксуса, растительного масла, цветов и сваренных в крутую яиц.
Огурцы росли в Индии 3 тыс. лет назад, в Шумерском государстве, Древней Греции, Римской империи, Франции IX в. (Карл Великий был любителем скушать огурчик), Англии начала XIII в. (где он был затем утрачен и вновь обретен в середине XVв.), в Испании в 1494 г. (испанцы с Христофором Колумбом завезли его на Гаити), в Монреале 1535 г. (по сведениям Жака Картье), в Южной Дакоте примерно 1500 г., в Новой Англии, по крайней мере в 1630 г. и по имеющимся сведениям в древней Фракии. «Цацки» [tzatziki] ели в Турции в начале XVI в., а затем в Греции.
В общем, большое количество людей ело огурцы в интересующие реконструкторов исторические периоды. Понятно, что этот популярный продукт мог потребляться в пищу повсюду, с тех пор как евреи стали есть их со времен Древнего Египта, а как знает всякий студент-историк, евреи побывали повсюду. И не стоит забывать о том, что выращивающие огурцы обширные империи (Греция, Рим, Оттоманская империя) так же расширяли территорию возделывания огурцов.

Вот более менее серьезная работа об этом овоще, которую мне удалось отыскать в сети
http://www.cambridge...e/cucumbers.htm
Вот отрывок об истории огурца:

Cucumber
Cucumbers are generally believed to have originated in India, and archaeological and linguistic evidence suggests that they have been cultivated throughout western Asia for at least 3,000 years (Hedrick 1919: 208; Whitaker and Davis 1962: 2—3; Sauer 1993: 45; Robinson and Decker-Walters 1997: 62). From India, the cucumber spread to Greece and Italy — where the crop was significant in the Roman Empire — and slightly later to China and southern Russia. In classical Rome, Pliny reported greenhouse production of cucumbers by the first century, and the Emperor Tiberius was said to have had them at his table throughout the year (Sauer 1993: 46). Cucumbers probably were diffused into the rest of Europe by the Romans and later throughout the New World via colonialism and indigenous trade networks. The earliest records of their cultivation appear in France by the ninth century, Great Britain by the fourteenth century, the Caribbean at the end of the fifteenth century, and North America by the middle of the sixteenth century (Hedrick 1919: 208).

Colonial encounters between Europeans and Native Americans resulted in the rapid diffusion of cucumbers throughout North America. The Spanish began growing them in Hispaniola by 1494, and less than a century later European explorers were noting that a wide range of Native American peoples from Montreal to New York, Virginia, and Florida were cultivating them, along with a large variety of other crops including maize, beans, squash, pumpkins, and gourds. By the seventeenth century, Native American groups on the Great Plains were also cultivating cucumbers — this in a region where the Spanish had been particularly significant in the diffusion of horses and guns, as well as Old World cultigens such as watermelons and cucumbers (see Wolf 1982).

Like other cucurbits, cucumbers have a wide range of consumption uses cross-culturally. They are generally eaten fresh or pickled and are particularly important in the diets of people living in Russia and East, South, and Southeast Asia, where they may also be served as a fresh or cooked vegetable. In India, the fruits are used in the preparation of chutney and curries. Cucumber seeds, young leaves, and cooked stems are also consumed in some parts of Asia.

In addition, since at least the nineteenth century, cucumbers have been used in the production of a large variety of cosmetics, including fragrances, body lotions, shampoos, and soaps (Robinson and Decker-Walters 1997: 63; Rubatzky and Yamaguchi 1997: 585).

Изменено: Bulavka, 07 Ноябрь 2007 - 16:52

[Silven]

Спасибо за правки!!!

Если бы мы нашли больше аутентичных рецептов 13-15 в.с исполльзованием огурца - то думаю миф было бы легче развеять.
В 16 м - то веке он уже часто упоминается.

[Bulavka]

Вот работа "Sturtevant's Edible Plants of the World", 1919, под редакцией U. P. Hedrick, которая упоминалась как источник в предидущем исследовании.

http://www.henriette...cumis-sati.html

Читаем тут:
Pliny says cucumbers were much grown in Africa as well as in Italy in his time, and that the Emperor Tiberius had cucumbers at his table every day in the year. We find reference to them in France in the ninth century, for Charlemagne ordered cucumbers to be planted on his estate. In Gough's British Topography, cucumbers are stated to have been common in England in the time of Edward III, 1327, but during the wars of the houses of York and Lancaster, their cultivation was neglected, the plant was lost, and they were reintroduced only in 1573. In 1629, Parkinson says "in many countries they use to eate coccumbers as wee doe apples or Peares," and they are thus eaten and relished at the present day in southern Russia and in Japan.

Война Роз нанесла суровый удар по огурцам в Центральной Европе. )) Так что действительно до начала 14го, а потом уже с конца 16го.

Изменено: Bulavka, 16 Ноябрь 2007 - 16:40

[Igla]

насчет "Цацики".. ещё так называют блюдо Балканской кухни, где главным составляющим является не огруец, а его собрат - кабачок.))